Why You Need PR

In today's episode, we dive into the magic of Public Relations (PR) and its transformative effect on brands. Our expert guest, Paige Dungan, sheds light on why a tailored PR strategy isn't just a choice—it's a necessity for brands that want to make an impact.

Here's what we unpack:

• The art of crafting a PR strategy that feels like your brand.
• The unmatched credibility a brand gains when the story is told right.
• PR's role as a brand's knight in shining armor during tough times.

With these insights, you're set to harness the power of PR for your brand's success.

Meet Paige Dungan, the top book publicist who turned her childhood passion for books into a mission to revolutionize the publishing and book launch space. She's here to give us a peek into the world of PR, share her journey, and explain why it's all about telling the right story.

‍

Key Takeaways

• PR isn't a one-size-fits-all approach. It's essential to customize campaigns to align with a brand's unique voice, target audience, and objectives.
• Collaborating with influencers and industry experts can further enhance a brand's reputation and expand its reach to newer audiences.
• A good PR strategy encompasses proactive measures to prevent potential issues and reactive plans to address any crisis that arises.

‍

Top 3 Reasons to Listen

Deep Dive into PR: Understand Public Relations beyond the surface level and get a comprehensive overview of its importance.

Expert Insights: Benefit from the wisdom and experiences of Paige Dungan, a top book publicist with a unique perspective on media and PR.

Strategic Takeaways: Gain actionable steps and strategies to incorporate into your brand's PR efforts for optimal results.

‍

Links to This Episode

• Apple Podcast
• Spotify
• YouTube
• Audible

‍

Follow Paige Dungan on Social

IG: @thepaigedungan

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/paigedungan/

Her website: https://www.thefrontporchcollective.co/

‍

More About Today's Guest, Paige Dungan

Leading Book Publicist

Paige Dungan's passion for the publishing industry ignited after her inaugural project with Dickey’s Barbecue Pit, a guide to Texas barbecue. She recognized the vast untapped potential for authors in media exposure. Dungan then rose to prominence as the Head of PR and Media Relations at SUCCESS Magazine, where she worked alongside some of the most renowned authors. Armed with experience from several best-sellers, she established her own community, aiming to equip authors with the tools needed for a dream book launch.

From a young age, books served as Paige's escape from an intimidating world. She was particularly drawn to The Boxcar Children series, which fueled her aspiration for a book-related career. Today, she enjoys a diverse range of literature, with her top pick being "Creating a Life that Matters: How to Live and Love with Meaning and Purpose."

Driven by the many uncertainties in the publishing sector, Paige seeks to demystify the book launch process. She believes that launching a book should be a thrilling experience, not a daunting task. That's why she founded The Front Porch Collective: a hub connecting industry leaders, authors, publishing experts, and media professionals, aimed at ensuring successful book launches.

‍

A Transcription of The Talk

Mark Drager:

So Paige, when it comes to PR, I think that there's a lot of misconceptions out there. And so if we can just start with what I think is the question everyone has on the top of their mind: what is the difference between PR that works, and what we all think of PR? Because I think of it as like, "Hey, I pay someone a lot of money. And in my mind, they're gonna be my publicist. Like they're gonna go out there and pitch me and get me stories and manage everything, kind of like, you know, a movie star has." And then you go and hire a PR firm, and you realize they don't seem to be really doing anything.

‍

Paige Dungan:

Oh, no, it's so true. Like being somebody in PR, I don't like PR agents for myself, because there are so many out there that charge a high dollar and don't have the results. So the difference between the good and the bad is this: the good ones use PR as a way to convert more leads and more sales. They're tactically going in and thinking about how media placements are going to convert into new audiences in your greater funnel. That PR agency is looking at things as kind of a one-hit wonder. Like, they're not going in strategically asking you about things like, "What are your sales goals? What are your new product launches? What's your pipeline?" If you don't hear those questions from a PR agency, run, and run fast.

‍

Mark Drager:

So it's not enough just for... I mean, I get these on IG all the time, but it's like, "We will get you the cover of New York Business magazine or something. I don't know what it is."

‍

Paige Dungan:

Okay, can I please? I'm so glad you're bringing this up. Because I want to call this out. Those are scams, fraud. Do not pay if somebody says they can guarantee you today, that you'll be on CNBC.com or the cover of that magazine. What they do is they will charge you, so you'll have to pay to have that coverage. First, no. All of those types of coverage are earned opportunities, meaning you should never pay for them. You should be able to get them by connecting with the editors and journalists to get placed there for free. The second thing to note, if you do go with them and you buy one of those packages, it goes away. Your story is only up for about 30 days. And so you may be able to say, "I've seen it," but it's ad space that they're buying, and it goes away. It's not evergreen. So you're going to spend all this money to have coverage, and then you won't have the backlink for months to come.

‍

Mark Drager:

I understand advertising. And I think most of us do. I think we understand marketing and sales. And of course, social media is a big part of most people's marketing mix. So we're going to spend money to generate leads for advertising. And via placement, we're going to do marketing. That's outbound and events. We're going to work those leads with sales, or maybe cold call people. And then social media is kind of a catch-all for like, "Let's just put stuff out there." And there's content marketing and other things. How should we be thinking of PR in the mix of all of these things?

‍

Paige Dungan:

Yeah, that's a great question. So I like to say that PR is kind of your head of communication for all of those things. So where PR starts is understanding your message, your story, right? How are you communicating to your buyers, your board members, your partners? That starts with PR. So before you even go into copywriting for an ad or for a new funnel, you need to start with PR, because that's the message behind it. And so I use it as this thread throughout all of them to keep consistent messaging, but also, it's creating authority in your product or in your brand.

‍

Mark Drager:

And do you... I'm smiling for all of our listeners because you're like, PR is the first thing. It makes sense. You're in PR. Like I'm a brand strategist. And I would say brand strategy is the first place to start. So when you and I were batting back and forth some ideas about my own brand, which is what I love about being able to connect with you and is that you're willing to just talk things out. What I noticed is I am very much an inbound guy. Like I come from the world of people having a need, they're looking for someone to help them. And then they're going to come and speak with me and maybe a bunch of other people. And I'm going to educate them. And I'm going to work them through the process. So I'm very used to people coming to me. And so I wrote all of my positioning, and I wrote all of my backstory as if people were kind of a little bit aware of me already or aware of the need, and they were coming to me. And then when I showed it to you, you're like, "Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, Mark. Like, no, we need to turn this into a pitch. Like we need to get some excitement. We need to get some sizzle here. We need to..." And it made me so uncomfortable. So when you talk about approaching all things from a PR point of view, what I found most interesting was I think of myself as a brand strategist would approach all things from the same saying the same things you're saying. But you're actually talking about like, how do we go out into the world and make you stand out and be different amongst a sea of stories that are getting pitched, right?

‍

Paige Dungan:

Yes, you're exactly right. Because when you think about it, on average, a journalist or editor receives 100 plus pitches about products a day. So this is when it comes down to the art of how to create, like you said, that sizzle that far, like, what problem are you trying to solve, and then your product is the tool to solve it. And that's what media cares about. And that's what, when we were working on your messaging, we kind of flipped it upside down, because they want to know exactly like to the point and concisely, okay, I didn't even know I have this problem, you're presenting the problem, but you're also giving me the solution with it.

‍

Mark Drager:

And just to help listeners, you know, so I am a fifth-generation... I hate to use the word entrepreneur because when I started my business, it wasn't six. I was a small business owner. I was not an entrepreneur. And if you go back four or five generations, I can tell you, my grandfather or my great-grandfather was not considering himself an entrepreneur. And so I felt like it was a stretch to be like fifth-generation entrepreneur. I texted my mom, I talked to my grandpa, my grandfather, and I wanted to ask them, like, would anyone be offended? You think if I said this? And they're like, no, no, it's true. You know, my mom ran a business. My grandfather built a massive nine-figure business, my great-grandfather built a huge business in Europe. And it was just like, you can go back. But now I said, I was just thinking fifth-generation entrepreneur, what a hook. And you're like, "No, no, Mark, this has to be like, how did this man learn 100 years of business experience before he was 40?" And that makes me really uncomfortable because I'm like, I don't know what the answer to that did. I did. Did I really learn 100 years of business experience? I don't know.

‍

Paige Dungan:

And that's the thing. I think people think of PR as like, we're stretching the truth. But all we're doing is repackaging the truth. That's why I like to say, again, we're storytellers and media wants to know the story. They can have any person come to them or any product to be like, "This is the best new toothbrush to fight plaque." Well, that's not exciting. What was the innovation behind it? What was the why behind it? That's what's going to set it apart from all the 1000 toothbrushes out there on the market. And it is, it's just taking your knowledge and your expertise and just packaging it in a way that sparks emotion. Because you know that in marketing, you know that in brand building, you have to tap into the emotional side of it.

‍

Mark Drager:

If our listener is coming at this and going either one, I've hired PR in the past, it did not work, you know, you have paid...

‍

Paige Dungan:

I get that all the time, all the time.

‍

Mark Drager:

I paid the five grand a month or the 10 grand a month. Sometimes it's more, sometimes I've entered into the $50,000 month thing, and it just was disappointing. So maybe that's it, or maybe you're like me, and honestly, I've never invested in PR because it's always felt like a luxury, like a nice to have. And yet the more you get to know you, and the more I get to know business, I'm like, man, that's a luxury I wish I would invest in. Either we've come at this burned, or we've never come at this before. If someone is approaching you, what should they do? Like? What are the steps that they should do to get the most out of the money spent or the relationship of working with you?

‍

Paige Dungan:

Yeah, so here are the questions that I teach to ask every publicist or agency that you work with. Number one, how many active clients do they have right now? Because that's important. If you're going to pay a large sum of money and be one of probably 40 clients, you know, that time allocated to you can be in much smaller chunks, which probably means the return is going to be that small too. So it doesn't mean that you can't go with a big agency, but make sure your account manager... you know how many clients they have at one time?

‍

Mark Drager:

And what's the perfect amount in your opinion, 6, 8, 10?

‍

Paige Dungan:

Oh, the perfect amount, I would say anywhere from three to six, right? that's where especially when I'm talking about business owners and entrepreneurs, that's where you want to be as you're building, right? As you're continuing to grow because you are going to be more than hand-holding, and you want more of that one-on-one relationship. Because the bigger you go, the less one-on-one it becomes and the more it just becomes a machine, which is great in some aspects. But if this is your first endeavor, or you've been burned by it in the past, you need to kind of step back and start from square one. So that would be number one. Number two, I would ask what their proven strategies are and placements they have in the past, not just to tell you, "I had gotten clients on CNBC, Fox News," ask for links and actual coverage, because I hate to say it, it is typical that agencies will inflate, not necessarily, but maybe their client got on ABC News. But many times it was the client's relationship or somebody else that led them there, they might have helped with the execution. So ask for kind of that resume, if you will, and ask for specific...

‍

Mark Drager:

I'm laughing because we just talked about how PR is all about the sizzle in the story. And you're saying, "I hate to say it, but sometimes PR agencies stretch the truth." I'm like, that's the nature of the beast.

‍

Paige Dungan:

It is the nature of the beast. Yes, it is. And it's not that we are giving fake news out there. We are just making it more engaging. And I hate to say in today's world, more clickable, if you will. And that's what you have to remember when you're entering an PR relationship. And the third thing that I would ask for is an ROI on your investment. So what I mean by that is, make sure you come up with monthly goals with your agency. Don't just pay the $5,000. And let it be a very broad statement. Make sure like, okay, I expect five podcasts a month, and agree on it together. But those deliverables have to be crystal clear. And it's also important to know to communicate that because some things take longer than other things when it comes to placements. But you need they're still attainable goals you can achieve each month and make sure those are, like I said, as clear as day because that's where people start paying and don't see a return.

‍

Mark Drager:

And should you also be just having an open conversation around expectations of the quality of placement? Because, for example, we both have a mutual friend who is my booking agent for my other podcast, the Mark Drager show. And I know that sometimes if he's working to try and book a very high-profile, challenging, hard-to-work-with guest, not because they're challenging, but because they're so big, or they're so busy, or there's just so much back and forth. I know that that's going to take a lot of time. So we have a conversation around expectations because I'd rather have slightly fewer bookings that are really high profile than have him just go through the Rolodex and go check, check, check, check, check, check, check, you know, did it done. It's fast. And so I respect that. I almost actually asked for like a credit system almost because I was like, listed, like, sometimes I just want volume. But there are other times where like, if you tell me that you're going to spend the entire month getting this one amazing placement, this one amazing thing. And we both think it's worth it. Just spend the whole month on that. Like, how big would that be? How amazing would that be? So should you be having this conversation around expectations?

‍

Paige Dungan:

You should. Because there are different tiers of media, right? You have kind of if you're thinking traditionally, you have local, regional, national, same thing with podcasts, right? There's the beginner, the middle, and the large podcast. And so you do have those conversations. And this is also something you should ask for is what is that media tracker? So you know, and you agree on all the type of placements that you want. So to your point, if you want to focus on national media, then you're looking at at least a probably a three-month lead time to land those placements. So what that would look like or what you said, month one and she was over at relationship buildings, feeding the story, then end of month two is going into the AF, and then three is making that happen. And so it is all about expectations because you need to know timelines, realistic timelines and ask the agency to get those to you. But it's super important before you even go to a PR agency. What is your goal? Like you said, if your goal is just, "I want as many interviews as possible. I don't care, I just want to practice being interviewed and just start media coverage." Amazing. But if you're looking maybe to grow your profile to the next level, that's going to be a different strategy. And so it's making sure as a client, you're going in with a very clear vision of what you want out of it.

‍

Mark Drager:

I remember hearing Cameron Harold, many people know him from maybe Genius Network or backpack, COO. I remember hearing him back in 2007 or eight speak at a keynote and talk about how PR impacted the growth of one 800 got junk. And I remember thinking at the time, oh, it's not just the story. It's not just the placement, it's the fact that you can then use that forever. As long as something kind of bad doesn't happen. Right. And so they worked so hard to get on Oprah, I think they were for three years to get on Oprah. And I've actually had Brian Scudamore, the CEO and the founder of 1-800-GOT-JUNK, on my other podcast. And he kind of talked about it in his book, too. But they worked for years to get on Oprah. But what that gave them then in like, whatever was 98, 99 when they're on Oprah, I think was something like 2008 They're still picking up the phone and going like, oh, did you? Did you hear about us on Oprah? Of course, no one heard about them. All right. I mean, that was like, I think it was off the air already. But they could use that forever. I mean, like, you know, if you worked with Kanye, maybe that's not so good. When suddenly he starts to take his PR that you don't want to use that anymore. If you're Adidas, but if you work with Kanye, you could use that forever. And you can say, Yeah, I worked with Kanye. So what do we do once we get the placement? How do we make the most of it to make sure it's not just a one and done thing?

‍

Paige Dungan:

Absolutely. So one, you take that placement and you extrapolate it across all your content, first of all, so you're using it on social, you're putting it on your website, you're using it in your email marketing, you put it in the signature line of your email where you've been featured and link to it, like you put it on all of your real estate. Number two is what happens when you get a large placement and like that, it opens the door to more large placements. So the problem is this what I do when somebody gets on say Good Morning America, I put that in my pitch. Most recently, he was on Good Morning America talking about blah, blah, blah, because media likes to see that you will already have some type of authority about you. So the best thing you could do with getting a huge placement is use it for more opportunities. Because to your point, it's not going anywhere. And even if it was back in 2008, you don't have to put Oh, back in 2008, I was on Oprah, you know, you have this stamp of approval. So put the logo on your website, like I said, put it in your signature, but then most importantly, use it for more press opportunities.

‍

Mark Drager:

You just reminded me of something I read the other day on Reddit talking about whether people check grades when you go to college or university. And there was a joke that said, what do you call the lowest grade graduating medical student? Doctor? And so it's like, oh, it was a long time ago. Who cares? Let's just keep using it. Ah, this is so good. Now, I noticed you said as a publicist. And so earlier on, I was saying like most of us expect our PR agencies to be publicists. So have I just miscategorized you for all of this time that we've known each other?

‍

Paige Dungan:

No, no, it's guys, I know. It's so confusing. It's very interchangeable. Typically, in the past, you would take publicists as someone in the entertainment industry, right, working on bookings from movies, celebrities, etc. Nowadays, PR professionals and publicists typically are along the same line. Now the difference though is there are PR agencies that cover all different kinds of PR, crisis communication, corporate messaging, mergers, acquisitions, etc. That comes from a traditional PR agency. A publicist is also a PR agency is we're all just getting the message out there for you. And growing your awareness and influence, though those names go interchangeably because publicists typically represent talent. And a PR agency represents brands but nowadays it's fluent, the same.

‍

Mark Drager:

Okay, very cool. This is the How to Sell More podcast. And so I know that we're talking right now about PR, and I'm coming with a ton of bias that this I'm thinking like, you know, most people are probably not starting with this, most people are probably just, you know, maybe a little bit uncomfortable with it. And I'd be interested, you know, if you're listening to this, and you're like, I started with PR right away, and it grew my company, send us a message and let us know, one by one to find out how that worked for you.

‍

Paige Dungan:

Absolutely, that's a fantastic strategy. Co-branded landing pages or special URLs can be a very effective way to capitalize on the PR placement. It creates a sense of exclusivity and relevance for the audience coming from that specific media outlet. It's like saying, "Hey, if you're here from Good Morning America, this is just for you." This can further enhance the impact and conversion rates from the PR activity. It's all about leveraging the credibility and trust that the media outlet brings and translating that into a meaningful action for your audience.

‍

Mark Drager:

Amazing. And can you do like co-branded stuff? Could you, like, if you're developing this landing page—let's say that you get on Good Morning America and you know that you're gonna get a placement on GMA—you know you're gonna get traffic and people say, "Where should you go?" And you maybe create a custom URL that's really catchy and easy to understand. And you send people there on that landing page. Would it make sense to be like, hey, Good Morning America viewers, and just go ahead and just like lean into it?special

‍

Paige Dungan:

Yes, absolutely. So personalize your page based on your placement. So if you are doing those, like National placements, create a special offer like, "Hey, Good Morning America. We love that you called us at 7am. Here's 10% off our product just for you." Right? To give them a customized—you're speaking to them, you know where they came from? Because they're gonna automatically feel that relatability with you and move to your purchase. So that's a great point, Mark. Yes, you're already PR pro. What are you talking about?

‍

Mark Drager:

Well, I mean, I haven't been in marketing for two decades. So I've been around watching you guys do stuff. I have two more questions for you. The first is, can we talk about integrations? So back when I used to do these really large campaigns with clients, there was the advertising as I mentioned, you know, we would buy placement, there's of course, organic, you know, maybe you're gonna do content marketing or other things to try and just drum up stuff. And PR is great. I always kind of considered PR as like an organic, like we most of us know, SEO, it's the organic side. But then there's the integration. There's the "we approach Wall Street Journal, and we say, we would like to work with you and we are going to pay for something and we are going to work together on some kind of advertorial or some kind of paid placement, and we are going to embed our message, but Wall Street Journal, you guys are going to do all the work like you guys come up with a story you guys do the work, you guys do everything, and we're just kind of paying to work with you. Is that a route that most people don't realize they can take?

‍

Paige Dungan:

Absolutely. So, and that's actually a sphere that's changing quite a bit, especially in the past few years. So we call it pay-to-play, and that's paid-to-play placements. Exactly what you're talking about. You go to Forbes, you pay for an advertorial. And it can be in all different types of multimedia campaign, but you're going to have something online at Forbes.com, right? They will have some type of capture for you. And you're paid to do that. Now, it used to be frowned upon in PR if you did do pay-to-play integrations like that because it was all earned opportunities. And it was like, "Okay, if you have to pay for a press, that doesn't actually mean it's a credible story when you're looking at it through the lens of journalism, right? Like true journalism." Nowadays, media brands have to make money and they're struggling. Ad sales are down, team members are down. So here comes the rise of pay-to-play. And so it is not as "poopoo," if you will, as it was years ago. And so there are very credible ways to do that. Like you said, with Wall Street Journal, anybody else. The key though is going directly and doing it with that media brand. Don't go through a third party, like somebody reaching on Instagram, reach out to them. And like you said, it will be a partner package where you guys will create the story together, you'll create that CTA together, it's a wonderful way to track also leads doing a paid opportunity because you have the platform to be able to capture users from. I would say that should be maybe 20% of your strategy, the bulk of your strategy should still be free earned PR. But if you have a product launch that you're like, "I need to get this out into Entrepreneur, Fast Company, Wall Street Journal, and I want guaranteed budget, but also know it's really expensive. It's not cheap, you're gonna pay way more for that placement than your PR agency. So just remember that.

‍

Mark Drager:

Yeah, yeah, we're talking high five figures, six figures type of fees for these things. But that's the world I used to. I used to come from the world where they'd be like, "We have no budget to make anything, but we're gonna spend $3 million on ad placement," like, okay, cool. Yeah, we're gonna spend $700,000 on an integration with a national publisher. "Oh, can you give us some of that money to make the stuff that's gonna go in there, maybe?"

‍

Paige Dungan:

It's so true. But this is where PR and marketing work so closely together because you may have only earmarked a very small budget for PR. Well, any type of those pay-to-play opportunities come from your marketing budget. So you have a much bigger pool you can pull from and hit two birds with one stone: advertising and coverage together. So that's where the real benefit comes from.

‍

Mark Drager:

It's so good. And I'll also point out that part of what I love about working with someone like you is there's not only the direct benefit of you working with me to shape the story, to shape how we need to be perceived to go out into the world, to pitch us, to get the extra stuff. That's the initial benefit. We've already touched on the second benefit, which is once you have the placement, you have it forever, and you can always leverage it and showcase it after the fact. But there's also this transformative effect. Like, you gave me language that I'm not quite comfortable with, but you know, in September, I'm at my next mastermind event, and I'm there, you know, maybe I'll test it, maybe I'll roll it out, maybe I'll get more comfortable with it, and it bleeds into our sales, it bleeds into how I present myself, or the opening of the walk-on to get on stage or networking, or whatever it is. Once you have that persona and you grow into it and other people are seeing you that way, you can leverage this messaging or this story in all of your other areas of marketing, advertising, and sales as well.

‍

Paige Dungan:

And I think that's the power in it also, like you said, there is a psychological effect that it has once you kind of really come in and embody it because you've got to believe. If you do not believe you are the expert or have an amazing product, it's just not going to sell. It's not going to come across in other interviews. And so there is this effect that you have to truly live and breathe your message, and you know this, Mr. Marketing, and all that you do, right? Both front-facing and behind the scenes. And there is no better way, just as you test marketing copy, you want to test PR pitches too, and there is no better audience than your audience that you already have. Because they are loyal, they're dedicated, they're in the trenches with you. So bring it to them, see the reaction before you try to attract new people into it. And if it has a negative response, that's a lot bigger of an impact in attraction and new. So do market test me. It's just like email marketing, right? And you do A/B testing. We do the same with our pitches. Typically, for one client or one brand, I have three to four pitch angles, completely different from each other. Because it takes that many angles to really see what lands. And depending on the type of media you're talking to, you're going to be flipping, you're gonna have the core message, but you're gonna be flipping the pitch to fit. Like if it's a business, if it's specifically marketing, if it's more aspirational. I'm thinking of you and your story. We're gonna talk about it in three different ways, but it also gives me a way to test three different angles.

‍

Mark Drager:

Ah, Paige, you are amazing. Okay, final question for you. This is the "How to Sell More" podcast. So whether it's related to PR or not, what is your number one tip for selling more?

‍

Paige Dungan:

Relationships, build relationships. And that's not coming from just someone in PR because that's all they do. That is critical, having genuine, authentic relationships and continuing to grow them, not stopping with just what you have.